KC - 10:24 AM
reading ur blog! fun stuff…..you
"sexist"
AD - 10:24 AM
lol
any feedback?
KC - 10:26 AM
ur experience reminded me of gandhi and
his attempt to humanise the (forced on) profession of dalits by calling them
harridan…..it back fired big time
harijan*
KC - 10:30 AM
gandhi wanted to elevate the position
of the dalits and their work (manual scavenging and other menial tasks) by
calling them 'harijan'
AD - 10:30 AM
right, but what parallel do you see?
are you equating it to my argument on
women and domestic work?
KC - 10:30 AM
but he didn't realise that he ended up
sounding patronising and inadvertently ended up humiliating the dalits
AD - 10:31 AM
whoops- that is interesting!
may be that is what happened in my case
KC - 10:32 AM
the parallel that i saw was that u too
in good conscience were trying elevate the status of house hold work….but it
backfired
AD - 10:32 AM
right right
interesting, how language is received
KC - 10:33 AM
am yet to read
AD - 10:33 AM
yet to read what?
KC - 10:33 AM
ur language piece
AD - 10:34 AM
oh ok. i meant that i just realised
from our present conversation how language can be received in absolutely
inverse way as compared to the intended
KC - 10:35 AM
oh like that…ya….like they say
"author is dead after his work'
AD - 10:36 AM
i am realizing this more and more as i
practice writing and reading. as well as day to day interactions
the multiplicity of (un)intended
interpretations baffles me, and at the same time pushes me to silence myself
unfortunately, silence then assumes its
own unintended meaning
or interpretation so to say
KC - 10:37 AM
ya i have the same experience but maybe
relatively less intense
AD - 10:38 AM
less intense?
KC - 10:38 AM
the space i am in too is very liberal
and feminist oriented
here we are expected to use 'she' and
not 'he' when referring to a common person
AD - 10:38 AM
ah i see
well, as long as you put a disclaimer,
i think its too much to expect
but the problem of academia or even
academics is this: that while we do apply theories to everyday events and acts,
we still remain too academic. There has to be a way of drilling in the theory
into the everyday with ease, so that you can really intervene into the society
KC - 10:41 AM
i am not complaining….i see their
point….when for millenniums together iof we go on saying that 'man is a
political animal' even though it means both the sexes, somewhere the bias in
usage of pronouns does creep into the psyche
AD - 10:42 AM
yes, i am sure you have read Simon De
Beauvoir on this
KC - 10:43 AM
ya i feel the same like u every single
day….but one thing i have realised is that today disciplines have gotten so
fucking specialised that unless u are in that discipline u won't understand the
nitty grit ties of their arguments
AD - 10:43 AM
yes, i buy that
KC - 10:43 AM
actually i haven't read that book….my
friends doing literature are reading that
AD - 10:44 AM
its so hard hitting
superb text
KC - 10:44 AM
i will read it sometime this year then
AD - 10:45 AM
you type very slow :P :-/
KC - 10:45 AM
shut uppp ok
AD - 10:46 AM
i am serious
do you use only to fingers out of the
10?
like all old people of our generation
do?
only 2*
KC - 10:58 AM
it is the tormentor's way of pacifying
the oppressed by making them believe that their is some (imaginary) space where
the oppressed is powerful
AD - 10:59 AM
what is this jargon
*please use simple language*
KC - 11:00 AM
it is like carrot-policy
AD - 11:01 AM
what is carrot policy?
KC - 11:01 AM
i dunno about your day to day
experience in US but in popular culture, there is a lot of sexist tone
AD - 11:01 AM
you are going in some imaginary space
without enough referents for me to relate our conversation :P
KC - 11:02 AM
there is this super-popular tv show
called modern family….its a great show but in spite of being calling themselves
'modern family' none of the women characters in the show work in a 'formal'
profession
AD - 11:02 AM
lol
all they care about here, is that women
must work
the man woman equality, in much
ideological conception here, is that man=woman
and so whatever a man does, a woman HAS
to do
i find that very literal
KC - 11:06 AM
what is even more amazing about the
show is that there are couple of gay characters who are partners….one is more
effeminate than the other….guess who goes to work? the less effeminate one
AD - 11:09 AM
sigh!
KC - 11:09 AM
it is only after being criticised by
the media that now the show shows the female and the effeminate guy to be
working
but u know honestly i don't see a
solution apart from women working and earning their own money….we forget the
super powerful influence that money plays
KC - 11:12 AM
money is a such basic requirement in
every person's life that if one has to be dependent on others for it, the
self-esteem of that person goes for a toss
AD - 11:13 AM
umm
you are saying that money brings
independence
and independence brings confidence
and confidence gives a voice to unheard
agreeable
KC - 11:14 AM
ABOUT THINGS I DIDNT MAKE CLEAR EARLIER
- i was referring to ur observation of how the these husband-wives jokes
portray women to be stronger but implicitly it means the opposite
AD - 11:14 AM
ah ok
but my argument is more fundamental -
there is a certain agency that the biological make up of the body brings
or allows
KC - 11:15 AM
hence i was trying to draw ur attention
to another case in our country whereby we worship so many goddesses but it
doesn't translate into anything when it comes to respecting women
AD - 11:15 AM
it is that which is at the political
contestation
i am fed up of the goddess-woman
equation also
all these cliche metaphorical debates
that try to elevate the status or the state of response of women
i think instead of man woman, we have
to begin to think of all of ourselves as human
it is only then we begin to respect
each body
and the irony of the goddess example is
that even in Gods exist man-woman divide
or the male-female divide
KC - 11:18 AM
hence i argued that it is the
tormentor's (men) away of pacifying the oppressed (women) by showing her and
falsely making her believe that there is some space (imaginary and in this case
the divine space) where women are powerful
AD - 11:20 AM
the effiminacy in gay-world is also
such a terrible cliche
i think that steretopying is essential
in the medium of image
KC - 11:21 AM
and like u pointed out to the horror of
women themselves posting and enjoying such sexist jokes, similarly but more
horrifying is when women in this country yearn for a boy-child and rue their
fate when it is a girl instead
AD - 11:22 AM
i thought that was a done-to-death
debate in our society
KC - 11:22 AM
it amazes me that they are so
unreflexive
AD - 11:22 AM
i mean there was nothing to academics
to push on that front
KC - 11:23 AM
but apparently effeminacy in gays is a very
common thing
AD - 11:23 AM
absolutely
KC - 11:24 AM
true but when the phenomena continues,
the debate can't end
AD - 11:24 AM
i mean there is nothing new to debate
you can only educate and you can mull
over the same debate again and again as an academic
and secondly, the debate doesnot have
to be dispensed academically to people, it has to be at a humanistic level
that is the problem - i think the
academia makes such issues almost into an industry
an industry of publishing papers
an industry of education
an industry of knowledge
KC - 11:27 AM
true there is nothing to the debate for
academicians
AD - 11:27 AM
in this specific case
the academicians have to go out in the
field and apply their theories
then they will understand the
challenges of changing mindsets
they cannot sit in their class rooms
and research cabins and merely write and talk about it
that is the difference of an armchair
intellectual versus a teacher
KC - 11:29 AM
the big schism between academics and
common people is worrisome but like i said earlier knowledge itself has gotten
so complicated that unless one is training oneself formally one doesn't have
access to such knowledge
AD - 11:30 AM
absolutely
i feel what is also worrisome is the
amount of information that one has to process today to merely add a new comment
to any discipline
KC - 11:32 AM
to take the example of history
itself….the way history was constructed by professional historians fifty years
ago and the way it is done today has gotten so intricate and so many methodologies
and evidences have come into play that history no longer in the 'story' format!
the linear trajectory of history is a
dead and gone thing
AD - 11:32 AM
sure
infact the emergence of historiography
as a field itself is a pointer to your comment
KC - 11:35 AM
but if i try to argue and explain the
common person that simplistic notions of past are no longer possible….he or she
doesn't understand at all…human beings by nature carve for the comfort of an
explanation and if a simple one does the trick, they will stick to that
AD - 11:35 AM
well, that is what I understand as an
exciting challenge
and that is what I believe is the
practice of a teacher
KC - 11:35 AM
CRAVE*
AD - 11:36 AM
to step by step construct as well as
dismantle this wall of questions
for their students
KC - 11:37 AM
but i don't understand when u say
academicians should apply their theories? like how do apropos they do that
propose
AD - 11:39 AM
i believe it is one thing to sit back
and look objectively and theorize, but another to really instrumentalize it
into an action for intervention - that requires a pedagogical capability
and it is probably a third thing to
really practice the pedagogy, and perhaps learn from it so that it can be
revised, which ultimately inform back the theory
KC - 11:41 AM
i think if academicians are able to
disseminate their theories more widely that itself should do a lot of the
job…that itself would be a lot of 'practice'
AD - 11:42 AM
ah well, this brings us to our initial
dilemma
of the worry about how the theory is
actually received
rather than how it is disseminated
KC - 11:43 AM
i didn't understand the 'received' part
AD - 11:43 AM
i personally do not think that
disseminating theory in today's media saturated and made-accessible world is
any difficult
and as we know the medium is the
message, so to control the medium and the control its reception is the key if
it was in the hands of the academician
but still, the academician can not
understand how his or her theory will be interpreted and operationalized if at
all
KC - 11:47 AM
media which is like butterfly chasers
can only disseminate limited ideas….but a formal and disciplined dissemination
of knowledge has a more long lasting effect
AD - 11:48 AM
honestly, dissemination doesnot worry
me
and theories i also feel, are
territorial
and belong to an area, they have a
limited sphere of influence
and they must have that
otherwise one loses the specificity
KC - 11:50 AM
but that uncertainty about reception of
knowledge will always be there…that shouldn't deter one from transmitting
knowledge…and honestly a big deal is made out of not knowing the intention of
the author argument
unless one is too stupid i don't see
how can go terribly wrong in grasping the message of the theorist especially if
he or she is explaining it repeatedly
AD - 11:52 AM
oh no no - you are missing an important
thing, and this is what you realize when you study in a globalized university -
the charges of words and their meanings held by different cultures is so
different that theories are more often than not, misinterpreted
KC - 11:56 AM
ya bro but we are studying western
theorists all the time but that is not leading to us COMPLETELY misinterpreting
the author…i agree that we can never completely know the intended argument but
with effort and some sympathetic reading one can beta gist of the other
person's argument
get a*
AD - 11:56 AM
and that is my biggest problem with our
education system
we have internalised a western view of
all the problems of our state and culture
our knowledge production is a mere
regurgitation of the methods adopted via western theorists
do we even have a theory of our own ?
probably we had it before!?
(and i am saying this at the risk of
being understood as a hypocrite, for I too came here to perfect my theorietical
skills, at Yale)
KC - 12:00 PM
that is a problem but u know what,
earlier when we were discussing about gender parity, gender rights and ethics,
we were arguing on western lines…feminism, the principle of equality of all
human beings, secularism etc are all western concepts!
AD - 12:01 PM
i dont think so, i think they have just
been verbalized by the West for the Modern society
KC - 12:01 PM
if we are going to question western
ideas and methods, we will also have to question the above mentioned ideas
which promote equity
AD - 12:02 PM
now that brings us to a very
interesting cross-junction
do you think adopting western methods
make us think in foreign ways?
KC - 12:04 PM
untouchabality was not a problem in
this country until the britishers pointed it to us….neither was sati
AD - 12:05 PM
i realized that i would be thrown at by
these examples
KC - 12:05 PM
our entire notion of equality was so
skewed up…equality existed only among members of jati….west had to come and
break this ridiculous notion
AD - 12:05 PM
but that is more to do with modern
thought than method
but well, modernism itself was a method
KC - 12:06 PM
ya exactly! modernity (post
renaissance) was not just a set of ideas but method too
AD - 12:07 PM
we are essentially debating if theory
and method are interrelated
or if they are two sides of the same
coin
KC - 12:08 PM
hence what i am saying is that even
though we might hate it, there are lots of things about western ideas which we
will reject only to our own peril
AD - 12:09 PM
thats quite a deterministic statement
i think it is more nuanced
and it needs to be seriously discussed
in detail
KC - 12:09 PM
even i have debated this point several
times with my professors…they argue that the theorising itself is a sort of
activism for them….
they argue that any social change in
the world has a thought behind it which can always be traced back to the much
hated theorists of academia
AD - 12:10 PM
ah now i see, they mean to indicate
theorising as activism, as politics
ie political thought
that makes sense
KC - 12:12 PM
and also ideas have a longer shelf life
than ground activism itself hence in that respect too theorists are extremely
valuable
AD - 12:12 PM
there is no question on the relevance
and importance of theorists
i was just debating in my head on
theory and method
but they are inherently tied
so would you think that there lies a
revolution in the reworking of a method
a method that will realize an
alternative form of theory?
(look for example the ideas that came
from surrealism)
KC - 12:14 PM
u mean art and literature being the new
sources of theory?
AD - 12:14 PM
the question also is, if theory in
itself has a form, or shapes a form?
art and literature have always been
sources of theory, and have always been political anyway
i mean devising a new method altogether
for eg. twitter is a new method of
thinking
(very lame eg.)
but you get what I mean to say?
KC - 12:16 PM
ya but am unable to relate to ur
example….internet might be a revolution when it comes to source of information
and its ease of access but that very ease of access allows so much shit to be
published online
AD - 12:17 PM
i didnot want to point to the internet,
but the FORM of TWEETING
tweeting as a method
tweeting as a way of thinking
in snippets
in small fragments
that cross reference
and so on
(just to take an eg.)
KC - 12:18 PM
since accessibility is the concern here
i think we should do what many of the scientists are doing...
AD - 12:18 PM
the question still being, if there is a
new form of theory waiting in the discovery of a new method
KC - 12:18 PM
science is the worst when it comes to
over-specialisation
AD - 12:19 PM
i think we are not on the same page
KC - 12:19 PM
hence many scientists today write
popular science books in order to make complex scientific knowledge graspable
for the lay person
we are on the same page! the reason u
are suggesting tweeting is because it presents knowledge in simple form and is
very accessible….i am suggesting another method addressing the same concerns
AD - 12:22 PM
no no, i used the example of tweeting
to refer or explicate an example of a new method
(badly framed sentence_
but i was wondering if changing or
finding a new method will change the act of theorizing
it certainly will
i am sure
KC - 12:23 PM
oh! but anyways i meant that there
should be academicians who just take the task of simplifying social theories
for the general populace (like ur heidegger and the hippo)
AD - 12:24 PM
haan
but again, that is not the point i am
trying to question you
I am asking you - if you think - that
the revision of a method will revise the act of theorizing
KC - 12:27 PM
if just method will change theorising
itself, i am not sure….see no one can start theorising out of the blue….he or
she will have to deal with the theories presented earlier and critique it to
move forward…hence in that respect u will still be dealing with old theories
but a new method backed by strong
reason for it and also backed by new theory can bring about a change
KC - 12:29 PM
husserl, heidegger, wittgenstein are
some of the figures who tried new style f theorising
AD - 12:29 PM
what is the relationship between method
and reason?
KC - 12:29 PM
in fact they didn't wanna
theorise….they just wanted to DESCRIBE human experiences
AD - 12:30 PM
interesting
does reason translate into method or is
it vice versa?
KC - 12:32 PM
going by the few figures as examples in
my mind…i would say reason translates into method
AD - 12:33 PM
so reason dictates method?
KC - 12:35 PM
ya….because academic community is just
like any other community…it has its own customs and traditions which it loves
to follow….hence someone who wants to 'disrupt' their tradition better have a
very good reason to do so
AD - 12:36 PM
how do you measure reason ? (borrowing
from david harvey perhaps)
KC - 12:38 PM
there are two parts to this reply:
one is of course, human rationality
judges the validity of a reason by scrutinising the premises and the
conclusions generated from it
but another equally important factor is
that a particular reason needs to be accepted by multitude of people….here the
assumption is that if one's reasons are 'sound' one will manage to garner
support for his or her position
but we need to remember that we are
always living in an age whereby particular ideas or ideologies are always
dominant. hence when we come up reasons which challenge the status quo even if
they are 'good' reasons, people find it hard to accept it because they are
still committed the dominate ideology
in such cases change and acceptance are
slow processes
AD - 12:49 PM
very beautifully put, and what in your mind
steers the change in reason?
but also, I was a bit disappointed in
learning that you suggest that the success of reason relies on the measure of
its acceptability by people
but at the same time, I find it
interested to learn that the affect of theories, or the acceptances of each
theory varies as society evolves itself
KC - 12:52 PM
oh ya it does! there are so many
thinkers who were thought to irrelevant in their own times but suddenly jumped
to prominence in a later age
but bro ask yourself can u make your
theory relevant if u are the only one supporting it??
others will just brand u to be a
narcissist
and since social change is what u
intend with ur theories, society will have to accept it too
AD - 12:55 PM
thats a strong argument
but that is also assuming that theories
are directed outwards
i mean, towards social change
but, if you think that the society
begins with you, as the agency of social change, then the only person that the
theory has to affect primarily is YOU yourself
thus, theories have to be turned
inwards first
and that requires an investment in the
self, and the working of the self - and should there be an independent theory
of the method of the self ?
how much then should the self be
concerned about social change?
KC - 12:59 PM
agreed….but ask urself if one creates
knowledge just for oneself??? i don't think so….theories are pieces of opinion
about the world and hence the world has a direct stake in your theory
world starts with a self, agreed….but
are we living alone??
AD - 12:59 PM
i dont believe so, infact, in the
renaissance, the pursuit of knowledge of was to unravel the self
KC - 1:00 PM
we are born in a collective, extremely
dependent on others, more than we even realise
AD - 1:00 PM
do we have a choice, in your opinion,
to remain secluded and alone?
i mean is it a compulsive
"choice" to be in community?
KC - 1:01 PM
and yet da vinci went ahead and
attempted the designs of so many contraptions which were thought to be useful
for the society
AD - 1:02 PM
while kafka implored
or so did nietzche
KC - 1:02 PM
and yet painters painted images from
the christian tradition which obviously was meant for the larger audience….u
seriously think these artists didn't crave for external validation? these
artists in fact had rich patrons!
AD - 1:03 PM
i am pointing to the inner recesses of
the mind they themselves wanted to extract
(referring to the Burrow by Kafka)
(using the self as a repository)
KC - 1:04 PM
who is stopping you from leaving the
society and living in a forest?
AD - 1:04 PM
thats a powerful rhetoric
KC - 1:04 PM
but u won't and can't…..not just
because others want u in their lives but even u wants others in your
life….human beings can't live in seclusion
AD - 1:05 PM
you have jammed me
i submit!
check-mate
wow, this was such a productive
conversation!
KC - 1:06 PM
yes it was! a lot of clarity came to
some of my ideas
AD - 1:06 PM
same here
but i am sure this wouldnt be possible
in a verbal conversation
i think textual chat gave us the time
to think and articulate our responses
KC - 1:08 PM
ya thats the advantage of indirect chat
especially for someone like me who takes time to articulate
AD - 1:09 PM
no, you take time because you type
using two fingers :P
KC - 1:10 PM
actually i just noticed that u were
right….i do use only two fingers :-o
AD - 1:10 PM
SEE! I told you
KC - 1:10 PM
but i also take time to frame a reply
AD - 1:10 PM
LEARN typing, it will benefit you
same here, but right now the speed of
your thinking adds to your speed of typing
when infact, the speed of your thought
must marry the speed of typing
so you are able to type as you think,
and then read and rethink if what you thought is indeed what you are thinking
KC - 1:14 PM
i have a lot of typing to do in the
next eight months! i will try to drastically improve my speed during this time
AD - 1:14 PM
learn the finger placement - 15 minutes
a day
KC - 1:14 PM
what is that
AD - 1:14 PM
you have these free typing softwares
placement of fingers on the keys of the
keyboard
KC - 1:15 PM
oh ok i will definitely try that! thanx
AD - 1:15 PM
yup yup
chalo
i will go now
good night
KC - 1:15 PM
ok bro! bye….nice talking
AD - 1:15 PM
:)
--
Above chat with a cousin, a budding philosopher.
12th Sept. 2014
